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134194-carbine-not-really-using-megaserver-technology
Content ---- ---- ---- ---- ---- ---- Yeah, that's actually the EXACT OPPOSITE of a solution. | |} ---- ---- ---- Cougar is saying that WILDSTAR DOES NOT USE THE SAME SERVER AS GUILD WARS 2. Cougar is NOT SAYING THAT WILDSTAR DOES NOT USE A "MEGASERVER". Just because something is called the same thing does not mean it's the same thing. Carbine has their OWN Megaserver Tech, they do not borrow GW2's Megaserver Tech. CRB did not lie to you. They are using Megaservers. The ONLY thing Cougar is saying here is that they didn't just rip off and steal Guild Wars 2's server tech, they made their own instead. /endrant. Edited September 30, 2015 by Seztren | |} ---- Actually, Sez, I read it a couple of times and the question was pretty specifically about the TECHNOLOGY. It wasn't about the naming convention or being shared servers with another game. I am feeling pretty confident that I read it correctly, as are others. Now, whether or not that's what she MEANT, I can't say - but I am confident we are reading what she said correctly. | |} ---- ---- Its funny you mention reading comprehension when you fail to read between the lines. And given the evidence of what is going on all around you, you cant see the forest for the tress. Based on everything that has happened so far, I am more inline to agree with the OPs stance on this than yours. | |} ---- ---- ---- ---- Clearly, based on the quote, they were implementing some kind of change to allow more players to play together on a single "server". If there wasn't a change in technology, the quote doesn't make sense as there wouldn't be anything to label. So OP saying it was just a term they applied to server merges is not a reasonable interpretation of this quote. And the "evidence" we see is that yes, they did implement some kind of tech change. Because the idea that all Carbine did was merge servers, then proceeded to do all the work to move to F2P, and not offer multiple servers at launch, is silly. Obviously there was a technology change. And obviously they called it "megaserver". It's completely fair, and Carbine seems to be transparent about this. "Megaserver" tech isn't going to make queues go away. There's always going to be a limit of what can be handled. But we can assume that the servers today can handle way more people than the servers at launch. | |} ---- Where are you seeing evidence of a megaserver outside of what they've told us? The pre-F2P population was probably small enough that it could have been run on a private server let alone a normal sized one. | |} ---- ---- ---- ---- The lag I've seen is does not appear to be tied to population or server strain. It happens on looting/drops/spawns, which is more likely due to something like a non-indexed database table than popluation. Edited September 30, 2015 by SlyJeff | |} ---- Thank you very much for clearing this up for these doomsayers with a clear and concise post, which will be ignored immediately because these kinds of people can never accept that they're wrong and would sooner obliterate the entire universe than admit they have no clue what they are talking about. | |} ---- Again, because the context of the quote is a technology change that they made and they needed to label. That is the evidence. But beyond that, you don't to a metric ton of work to bring hoards of people onto your game and then try to support it on a single server that does not have some kind of special tech designed to handle a large population. | |} ---- ---- *sigh* Excuses for what, exactly? Do you think Carbine has some nefarious plot to make a big change to bring in tons of people and then purposely not have the infrastructure to handle it? Because WS F2P is all just a big troll, right? No one is excusing or making arguments for Carbine in this thread. The quote supplied does not mean "Carbine lied and they really didn't do anything except merge servers", and I'm having trouble understanding why people would read that and think it means that. All he said was that they did not use the "megaserver" technology that other people have used. Pointing that out is not making an excuse for Carbine. | |} ---- ---- I expect (now I could be wrong) that it has a lot to do with the incredibly poor performance that everyone is experiencing? People are understandably frustrated and casting about for answers or solutions as to why nothing has been done about it. And no, server restarts don't count as "doing something" if the issue reappears within five minutes after coming back up. It is a complete disaster at this point - and yeah, people are upset about it. Now, I don't buy into the great conspiracy or the "WAAAAAAH THEY JUST DON'T CARE WAAAAAAAH" juvenile crap - but *something* is to blame and without ANY input from the studio, people are going to do what they always do when confronted with frustration and no solutions: they're going to find someone to blame. | |} ---- ---- I agree Tex, but I would personally rather the devs and engineers focus on fixing the problems then comforting us that they're being fixed. Just my personal 2 cents though. *face palm* Edited September 30, 2015 by Nazryn | |} ---- I understand people being upset, and I understand questioning the tech that Carbine is using. But to think that Carbine didn't actually do anything but apply the label "megaserver" and then cite that quote as evidence just doesn't follow. Anyway, I'm sure they are looking very hard to identify the problem. If they knew what it was, I doubt they'd let it keep going. Bug squashing is hard :( Do you remember that bug where it took forever to change gear? This smacks of the same kind of thing, only it's being experienced a lot more frequently (pretty much every time a mob dies). | |} ---- Well, again, I am not 100% certain (okay I am :D ) but the Community Managers don't actually code or program or technical support. There is no reason they couldn't just send someone, anyone, to pop in here every few hours (and I ain't asking for hourly or even every other hour, just two or three times a day) and say "Hey, it's still broke. No clue yet, but we're working on it!" or "Problem isolated, still looking for the best solution going forward" or SOMETHING to mollify the angry mob. We've learned that a little information is dangerous, but sincerely talking to your community about the problems doesn't turn negative nearly as fast as just not saying anything and letting already-frustrated people stir in their own juices. | |} ---- ---- ---- See! That's all we (as a Community) really need. Honest communication. I mean, when Sony got hacked years ago, I was part of the DC Universe community, and say what you want about Sony, but they were so honest, so forthcoming with what was going to happen, when they shut us down for almost a month, everyone came back with no hard feelings. People are impatient, but they're also generally willing to listen to reason when presented with earnest communication. | |} ---- So, yeah, it looks like the lag issue *is* related to so many people being on at once, but not an indication that they aren't using "megaserver" tech. It appears to be at the database level, which suggests a problem with their implementation of "megaservers" rather than an absence of "megaservers". Edited September 30, 2015 by SlyJeff | |} ---- ---- A knowledge of server technology is not needed to understand what Cougar said. He said they just call it a mega server. That means it really isn't. | |} ---- ---- I don't know, database errors sound like something that'd easily be spotted during testing. Could be but to me it seems more likely the server that handles loot is being overloaded and slowing down the rest of the game. Reason for example why chat doesn't appear to be having any lag, despite getting lots of load also (because everyone is complaining about lag :p). I'm skeptical of the whole 'megaserver' thing. The population was really small, it wouldn't even make sense to set up a megaserver but then I wasn't playing at the time. Whichever the case carbine dropped the ball for the launch preparations. Edited September 30, 2015 by Jelletje | |} ---- I'd say the loot generation induced lag is a side effect of the fact that they probably used the same 'grant' system for Loot, Item Claiming, and the Item conversion system, and it's just horribly overloaded. A lot of stuff happens automatically just by logging a character in, and even though that involved pulling stuff from your bags and turning it into mail, it is the same system, as is claiming it back from the mail, or stuff you buy in the store, or Cosmic Rewards, etc. | |} ---- ---- No, it doesn't meant that. It means it's not the same "megaserver" tech that other people used. That's EXACTLY what he said. | |} ---- If you look at my next quote, you'll see they do know what's causing it, and it is database contention. It wasn't caught in testing because they didn't have this number of concurrent users trying to access a single resource. It's the kind of thing that is very difficult to load test, and also very difficult to fix quickly. Chat isn't having lag because it wouldn't be accessing this database table. | |} ---- Cougar was talking about the naming convention, not the tech. They chose to use the same name, even though they were doing it a different way. That doesn't logically lead to the conclusion they did nothing, just that they didn't do it the same way. | |} ---- ---- Actually you're just making things up now. That quote merely states that the server is getting shredded by the sheer volume of loot/xp being handed out. This does not necesarily imply a database bug, nor does it imply the loot server is overloaded though like I said I'm betting the latter. | |} ---- Ok, in my head I read a silent "database" in there, and yes, you are right it isn't actually there. But conceptually that's the idea- there is contention on handling xp/loot drops. The point is, this points away from the idea that they never actually implemented megaserver tech, and more that they did it but were unable to test this kind of load. | |} ---- Second Jurassic Park reference of the day! We have a theme, ladies and gents! | |} ---- ---- ---- ---- Show me proof other than the word of the devs in a rapidly sinking ship. | |} ---- ---- ---- ---- What is causing the lag is resource contention when loot/xp are dropped. You probably wouldn't have this problem without megaservers because there wouldn't be enough people to contend for this resource. | |} ---- I'm not sure what you are expecting here. This thread was created pointing to a quote saying they were not using the same tech as another company when they shifted to megaservers. The thread said that this quote was an admission by Carbine that it was just a marketing term. The quote was not an admission of that. Asking for proof that Carbine did what they said they did is a different discussion. However, there is no evidence that they didn't shift to megaservers. | |} ---- So, what, the theory here is: Carbine knowingly and very publicly lied about creating "megaservers" and instead just transferred everyone to a handful of servers - but took several months to do so despite the technology for server transfers existing for months prior. Then, knowing the remaining servers have the same capacity as at launch decided to make the game free and open it up to everyone, not suspecting in the least that more people than the servers could handle would be trying out the game. And now, rather than create another lie - since they are liars after all - and roll up new servers to solve the issue (which would be easy to lie about, just brag that F2P is such a success even the megaservers can't handle all the people!) they're just going to stubbornly stick by what they said until, what, enough people leave so the servers' capacities are no longer exceeded and we're right back to where we began with the population issue? So, not only are they liars and incompetent, but were also incredibly pessimistic about F2P's success and are actively sabotaging themselves. I think one of the next things Carbine should add to the store is a tin-foil hat. | |} ---- All MMO forums are full of these kinds of threads at launch times. So if you are smart enough to know that, and you don't want to see them, why are you reading the forum right now? | |} ---- ---- Exactly. | |} ---- Ok shut it down, we have a winner. | |} ---- Oh boy, you are gonna be SO sad and disappointed when you find the truth, its gonna be delicious. | |} ---- ---- | |} ---- And here I thought truthers were all about skyscrapers and melting steel beams. | |} ---- Also id like to add that this person has 100% (higher if possible) no idea what they are talking about. Arenanets Megaservers are completely based around their PVE section. The Megaservers do not effect WVW and especially PVP even a percentage. ESPECIALLY PVP. The Megaservers are strictly for the basis of keep all maps alive and social for the aspect of PVE. WvW has a Queue and is never effected by any sort of Megaserver; there is no background technology to it unlike the PVE shards. WVW has remained unchanged since launch. | |} ---- Also, he didnt say it was the same as ESO. He said ESO uses the term megaservers also, and their system is different from arenanet. He was saying its a common term. | |} ---- Boy are you wrong. The Arkship caps at about 50 people per copy, and the Landing zones at either 75 or 125. Other places have higher caps, but still caps. They do their best to avoid using them on the main continents, but to say it never ever ever happens is a falsehood. | |} ---- That was exactly my point, though? The Megaserver technology Arenanet uses keeps the server split into realms for the purpose of WvW PvP, while keeping PvE lively. Which is different to how the servers in Wildstar work, because as you may notice, Warhound and Entity aren't really connected and share neither PvE nor PvP areas. | |} ---- this actually sounds unbelievable to you? NCSoft has been breathing down carbines neck since launch. Its like owing the neighborhood bully money. Do what you can when you can while you can before youre canned. To be completley honest I read what you wrote expecting something far more far fetched. Much more ridiculous things have happened than what you just said. Now, I dont think thats EXACTLY what happened, what I think happened is they did a tiny server merge and for F2P didnt have money to create a new server or anything like that, and this is one giant on the moment risk. If F2P players actually stick with the game, expect to see two more new servers pop up. Because, you know, Megaservers. ha | |} ---- Of course. Because it relies on people acting in completely irrational ways. The answer that they created a megaserver tech that has issues the first time a gazillion people were let loose on it is far simpler and more rational. | |} ---- What you said didnt sound anything like that, but if thats what you meant I will completely apologize and delete post | |} ---- That theory requires too much coherent thought I just scream "CARBINE LIED!!!!" on the forums because the game isn't working perfectly and I want to play it. | |} ---- ---- ---- ---- What, exactly, do you think keeps track of all the loot, some little leprechaun sitting in a rocking chair with a pad of paper and a quill pen? | |} ---- ---- Wait you want me to take TIME and inform myself about the topic? That's time I could be making 100000 more forum posts COMPLAINING about the topic! | |} ---- As a general rule, businesses avoid setting themselves up for failure. To suggest Carbine is using the same server tech they had at launch is suggesting just that, because there is no world in which opening the game up to everyone with four of the original servers is anything but a logistical nightmare with zero chance of success. Even if we are to believe Carbine only anticipated a few hundred people trying the game out (which I'm sure the closed beta sign-ups easily disproved), they have NCSoft looking over their shoulders. This is hardly NCSoft's first MMO, nor the first of theirs to go F2P. NCSoft could've shut down Wildstar at anytime, but have continued to funnel money into it to get it to this point. NCSoft has proven themselves invested enough in giving this game another chance that I doubt they would be so oblivious about Carbine's server tech. That, and I'm sure the people are Carbine would like to keep their jobs. And, like I said, if this is the case, why not find some excuse to roll up new servers and save themselves all this headache? Saying so many people are playing your game that you need more servers looks a whole helluva lot better than having the game be unplayable for people for several days. What is being suggested here isn't saying Carbine is rearranging chairs on the Titanic. It's saying they built an iceburg, aimed their ship at it, and went full steam ahead. It's ridiculous. Edited September 30, 2015 by Cantatus | |} ---- ---- This explains everything, imo. | |} ---- Or you could prove him wrong? | |} ---- And from the problems I saw in game looks like their server nodes are working OK but when data needs to be synced across them (loot & stuff) it get's hosed (write lock). One can replicate DBs but without some beefy HW write request will hose it down. | |} ---- If they did do this then Carbine is my spirit animal, as my life choices all seem to follow the pattern of avoiding problems and lying to myself until I've otherwise completely destroyed my future or at least ended up in the fetal position pretending it will all go away on its own. Edited September 30, 2015 by Beartornado | |} ---- They should just give it to everyone for free with some kind of funny/passive aggressive flavored text. | |} ---- ---- Of course it all makes sense now! I mean the f2p release was rushed out of the door and meanwhile how could carbine hire a sufficient amount of leprechauns for this daunting task.A single leprechaun's manegorial skill may do for a couple hundred players but that poor bugger is just overworked now. Grabbing more hamsters to power the system is no big deal but where can you even find leprechauns this day and age. | |} ---- ---- ---- ---- ---- Well, I don't think it means: "lol, we all agreed to call it a 'megaserver' even though we just merged everyone onto a regular server. And we're telling you this because we know that it'll never come back to bite us in any way". According to Pyaray and Cougar, Carbine developed technology to increase the player cap. Whether it's truly a megaserver or not, I can't really say. | |} ---- Agreed, just wish there were channels to break up the amount of players my PC has to render... T_T | |} ---- ---- ---- ---- ---- ---- So you are saying they should implement Arenanet mega server tech? I agree because their version of MEGA server is not so mega and not working for anyone. Especially those now on underpopulated new servers atm. I would agree with you but their decisions are not showing smart leadership. Look at their recent decision to change the way removing authentictors works. No need for the code or a support ticket anymore. Just go to a support article and click remove auth, it sends an email you click and authentictor is gone. WTF, they just removed the security from every authenticator. Why would they do that, just so they can save a few bucks on support tickets. Sounds like the most retarded security decision any MMO game can make. Nothing smart about that move from any angle. Edited October 22, 2015 by Bound4Earth | |} ---- Actually what he is saying is Megaserver, as a term, is used often. Ever since GW2 put up what they called Megaservers, TESO and WS picked up the term but don't follow in the same. So by the term Megaserver as it is by GW2, this isn't a Megaserver but just a server merger. But ultimately who cares? It is what it is. But if you want to argue then look up what a Megaserver actually is. | |} ---- I removed my authenticator a few days ago when switching phones before adding it back and that is not how it goes. You go into your account management to get rid of it like any other game. Edited October 22, 2015 by Leiloni | |} ---- You used the standard method for removal, if you didn't simply delete the app from your phone without unlinking it first. He's talking about the change made for people who accidentally lost the seed code or deleted the app. | |} ---- I don't think they gave any sort of "seed code" or special code to remove it when you first setup the app. Blizzard and FFXIV both have an emergency removal password, but there wasn't one for this or for GW2 which uses the same app. | |} ---- You would be wrong | |} ---- Then they're idiots because it doesn't say that when you set the thing up. I scanned the barcode and there's nothing on the setup page telling you to save anything. | |} ---- What I was saying is that Wildstar, ESO, and GW2 all have megaservers. But exactly HOW the megaservers are set up and the proprietary tech used in each instance isn't the same. Just like Rye, Wheat, and White are all bread (all those games megaservers) but each is different from the other in small but important ways. But In the end they all make a mean sandwich. | |} ---- ---- ---- ---- You're a dev lead and for a sec I thought your name was Builden. Missed opportunity! | |} ---- Ah. So it's not an instance/scaling thing, like *every other game company on the planet uses the word "megaserver" for*, but it's just some kind of alien technology to increase the concurrence capacity of traditional servers. Gotcha. No complaints on the tech (at least in concept), but that's a big marketing fail on the name choice, there. | |} ---- ---- Ummm I linked you the page with setup instructions. Not sure whose fault it was that you set up without reading it. | |} ---- Right, "as long as it works" -which it doesn't. And we see how it "works" every evening. | |} ---- Incorrect. It's totally a scaling thing. With the onset of Megaservers, the team set out to refactor our back-end technology to allow additional max capacity and for horizontal scaling of certain server applications (ie daemons). As our scaling needs increase, new instances of these services spin-up. We've also done other work, including dividing heavy-load services into separate systems. So its tackling both methods. Overall, it is a very complex project, that has indeed allowed us to merge old "launch realms" into a setup that allows us to support significantly more player populations on a single realm -- henceforth Megaservers. What Cougar tried to explain was that there's no "default" to what a "Megaserver" actually is -- every game has its own architecture, and that WildStar's take on the idea does not actually share any common code with say GuildWars 2, despite sharing the concept of bringing larger amounts of users together concurrently than typical servers/shards/realms. What we've been seeing since F2P launch is bottle-necks and bugs in this new structure. Do we have Megaservers? Absolutely. These issues do not discount the fact that our technology has drastically evolved to handle higher load. Does it have issues? Yes. And that's what our Engineering teams have been working on addressing for a number of weeks now. Attrition is not a solution for us, as that's a very bad business decision. Our focus is to resolve the technical hurdles and focus on bringing even more players to WildStar over the next few weeks, months, and years to come. You want a healthy and stable game, and so do we. :) | |} ---- Why would I go to the support page when they have instructions on the account management page? They literally take you through it step by step right there in account management. They just apparently left out the important part. | |} ---- ---- ---- Long long ago, in a galaxy .... pretty darned close, I actually did write an article about the high level overview of our server architecture. You can still find it if you scroll back through 2.5 years of news posts... Or you could click this link... http://www.wildstar-online.com/en/news/lets-talk-about-servers/ :) It's pretty high level, but I'm actually pretty happy to answer questions about the tech, with the exception of things we hold confidential. | |} ---- This article and the one Cougar wrote about the patching/bug triage process are the two main reasons I laugh when people complain that Carbine isn't transparent and the way they do things doesn't make sense. | |} ---- Yeah you're right. Reading the FAQ and Instruction guide for doing something to your account that relies on a 3rd party app is just crazy talk. | |} ---- Bingo! Give that alien a Chua explosive packed cigar! ;) We have a daemon that sits between the instance servers and the SQL server, and it's performance did not scale as linearly as we expected. And unrelated to the post I'm quoting, but on the topic of the thread, our Mega Servers, even with the issues at relaunch, hold way more people than our launch Realms could . Our Mega Server is not the same tech as GW2 or TESO, or any other MMO that has ever used the same term, because we share no common code with any of them. Our server tech is completely proprietary, just like theirs. When we wrote all the code to make our servers into "Mega Servers", we didn't take any features out, so spinning up a new Mega Server is as easy as spinning up a new Realm was at launch, because all of the code that made the Realms work as Realms, is still in the Mega Servers, the Mega Servers just have much more instancing code for instancing things that weren't instanced in the original launch Realms (and I'm not talking about the world instances, that's always been there, other services that make the game work.) | |} ---- ---- Oo why would you do that? MS SQL is more then fast enough and scalable to handle such loads. Go kick it out and use proper connection pooling :P I know, it sounds easy written like that, but you probably get the point :D | |} ---- You have a daemon sitting in your servers and you're wondering why we have server issues? Slay that *cupcake* thing already! pro tip - his wi-fi password is 1234 | |} ---- Thanks for this explanation. I find it funny that people actually think that Cougar was saying "we just merged everyone into one bog-standard server but we all agreed on calling it a megaserver to try to trick you into thinking we actually have a megaserver. Why am I telling you this? Why, for the luls, of course. I mean, how could telling you this come back and bite me?". ;) Edited October 23, 2015 by MadBlue | |} ---- ---- ---- Like I said, they DO HAVE INSTRUCTIONs on the account management page. They literally have a guide as you do it. Why would I assume there's ANOTHER GUIDE lol? That's ridiculous. If they take me through it step by step right there, what question would I possibly have? | |} ---- Yup, I get the point, but you don't have all the details. :) We need certain things to be transactionally safe, but with data coming from multiple servers, and the results returning to multiple servers. | |} ---- Indeed, or else it would be very simple to dupe in wildstar. Quite a few games made that mistake to the detriment of network cables everywhere. :P The masses tend to just do this option vice using system tools. | |} ---- ---- Ooh, I get it :D You guys sure didn't make it easy on yourself though :P | |} ---- ---- No, this thread, nor anything in it says or suggests WS's megaservers can or cannot hold as many / more players as GW2. It only covers that ALL games that use "megaservers" employ different proprietary technology to do so. | |} ----